Outgrowing alcoholism and other substance addictions is not only possible but probable. If a person truly wants to quit drinking, all they need are the right strategies, tactics, resources, tools, and a high level of commitment and accountability.
A key component is an overall strategy…
And preferably an epic strategy.
The Outgrow Alcohol Strategy
Too many times we hear about people wanting to quit drinking and making a half-measure effort to do so. This hardly ever works…
Thus, another way to overcome alcohol addiction is to outgrow it in the following ways:
- Biochemical (Repair brain-body health so much that you feel extraordinary naturally)
- Psychological (Reframe alcohol as not only undesirable, but a totally moot substance)
- Social (Become so confident, so comfortable in your own skin, so psychologically mature that you never feel bad about abstaining from alcohol again)
- Spiritual (Harness the power of spritual will and spiritual quantum energy as we’re 99.99% energy… and these energies can take you to places so extraordinary in consciosness and state of being that alcohol becomes laughable)
The Hierarchy of Recovery
In episode 234 of Elevation Recovery, Matt Finch and featured guest Zach Reeder, both Certified Fit Recovery Coaches, discuss the topic of outgrowing alcohol and other addictions while evolving through adversity.
Matt and Zach both overcame alcoholism by simply outgrowing it. They had developed learned-powerlessness over alcohol and after repairing things like hypoglycemia and neurotransmitter imbalances and learning new skills for life, mindset enhancement, and more, the desire to drink or use drugs quickly dissolved.
They both used the Hierarchy of Recovery model of addiction recovery to overcome and outgrow alcohol and drug addiction, although they didn’t know the name of this model back then.
The Hierarchy of Recovery views alcohol addiction as a predominantly biochemical disorder that usually has a combination of psychological, social, environmental, and spiritual elements as well.
Mainstream alcohol and/or drug programs in the U.S. fail to incorporate the biochemical pillar into their cookie-cutter treatment planning system. Which is the main reason why their failure rates are often 90-99%.
How To Outgrow Alcohol & Evolve Through Adversity
Quitting drinking and actually recovering from alcoholism takes time, energy, focus, and much more. Luckily, Matt Finch and Zach Reeder have created this exact podcast episode for you to learn many lessons from their mistakes and more importantly… powerful resources and tools for you to overcome alcohol using the Hierarchy of Recovery.
Whether you prefer listening on Apply Podcasts or Spotify or ElevationRecovery.com or by downloading the MP3…
Or you can watch the YouTube video below or even read the full written transcript (below as well)…
This episode will be enjoyable, educational, empowering, entertaining, inspirational, and motivational.
3 Ways You Can Access This Episode:
- Watch the video
- Listen to the audio
- Read the transcript
Zach Reeder: I've seen the dichotomy of this. I've seen people do nothing, and I've seen people make leaps and bounds in a very short amount of time because they were open to having a plan, they were willing to do the uncomfortable work. And that's the biggest thing is, if you can figure out your plan with somebody, you don't have to do it alone. That's why you and I do the things that we do. They don't have to do it alone. Being able to work with someone and come up with a plan, and then hold yourself to it. But understand that just because you have a plan doesn't mean that it's easy either.
Announcer: Thanks for tuning in to the Elevation Recovery podcast, your hub for addiction recovery strategies, hosted by Chris Scott and Matt Finch.
Matt Finch: Welcome, everyone to episode 234 of Elevation Recovery. My name is Matt Finch, I'm your host, and I'm joined today with my very good friend and fellow Fit Recovery coach, Zach Reeder, for a round two. You and I had a discussion, Zach, guess that was a few months ago now. And I really wanted to interview you based on your interview with Chris, how you were talking about playing in live bands, and being in music, and going on these huge binges of alcohol and drugs, not wanting the party end. In that last episode, we talked about wanting to fit in and have fun with friends, and have great conversations and experiences. We talked about the high sensation seeking trait, and how people like us would do more, risk more, and do more time and energy, put that forth to get some type of a high sensation.
Matt Finch: And then towards the end, we wove in there how when you quit drugs or alcohol or both, you got to recalibrate your nervous system to where doing normal things can actually get that high sensation. And that takes a while, and we talked about lots of different ways to do that. Today, we've got a different topic and you're going to be the leader of the ship. I'm going to support you on this one. And the topic is, how to outgrow alcoholism, and what was it? And then strive through adversity-
Zach Reeder: Or evolve through adversity. Yeah.
Matt Finch: Yeah. How to outgrow alcoholism and evolve through adversity. So you got some notes on this too. You did some serious intuiting, and meditating, and brainstorming. So I'm just going to ask you based on what you wrote, we'll start going through it. What is adversity and active use? Drug seeking behavior, the stigma of being an addict, character defects that develop. I remember that stuff.
Zach Reeder: Yeah. So if you look back in active use, what were the adversities, the barriers in that, the biggest one in my opinion was that cycle of obtaining, using, and recovering from, because that whole thing is adversity. But it's ironic, though because we trick ourselves in our mind. I mean, literally. And I've had this conversation with so many clients, it seems like so much work when they talked. So I was talking to this client in one of my groups the other day, and she's going, "Yeah." She's like, "I just had this baby but I was in the shower and I was sitting and really stewing on how I could get some pills today. But I'm on Vivitrol, would I even get high? How am I going to get any money? I have a GPS tracker on my phone, my boyfriend knows where I'm at, so how am I going to get around that?"
Zach Reeder: I'm like, "Wow, that sounds like a lot of work." That sounds like a lot of work to be able to obtain, use, and then recover from. That's some serious work. I guess where I'm going with that is, can you think of how long or how much energy and effort it took just to stay high?
Matt Finch: I sure can.
Zach Reeder: It's-
Matt Finch: Addicts and alcoholics, I hate that word, but I'm just going to say it right here, because they are some of the most motivated people that can just, if they've got a goal like, "I want to get a go bag of heroin, I want to go get some Percocet, I'm going to go to the liquor store." People will drive hours and hours. They'll just come up with these elaborate stories where they have to tell different lies to different people and make sure that none of them know, and so many more things. I got to figure out some money, so I'm going to borrow some from this person, I'm going to pawn this, I'm going to see how much change I have in my car. And all that to go, and then in this person's case to go get some pills and she's on Vivitrol so if they're opioid pills which I guess they were, she's not even going to feel it whatsoever. Whoa.
Zach Reeder: Yeah. And I don't know how many times I borrowed money from my parents knowing I was just going to go get drunk or messed up with it. So ended up knowing all this money to... How many times I got fronted on drug dealers, so now I'm trying to figure out how to pay this one back, while I'm getting fronted on this one. How much of this do I need to sell so I can make enough to get both of these guys paid off? Yeah. When you get to a place where you got to sell it just to be able to do it, it's...
Zach Reeder: So I guess that'd be number one in adversity and active use. But another one that's probably just as relevant is the stigma of being an addict. And I quote, unquote, being an addict. Having that maladaptive behavior, there's obviously stigma around it. Now, there's a difference though, isn't there? Because there's... Would you say that there's as much stigma about having an alcohol problem versus a meth problem?
Matt Finch: Oh, yeah, the meth stigma is way bigger. [crosstalk 00:06:32].
Zach Reeder: Sure. Does that make alcohol more dangerous? Do you think?
Matt Finch: Makes alcohol way more dangerous. I was talking about this with a client today, and they were saying, "Tell me something. Why is alcohol the only drug that when somebody sees you not consuming it, or ask about that, that you have to defend why you're not?" And I said, that's actually not true. At the beginning it seems like that. At the beginning, you feel like you need to be defensive, and defend yourself. But then I said as time goes on, as you work on your shit, as you rebuild your brain chemistry, and habits, and lifestyle, and identity, and belief systems, it takes some more. Do some shadow work, work through all this stuff, versus detoxifying from the substances. And this is a bunch of stuff we're going to get into too.
Matt Finch: Then it's doing all the work. After you do the work, you don't need to defend yourself to anyone, because you don't care what anyone thinks. That used to be me. I felt so bad about myself. People would be like, "Oh, you don't drink." And I'd act proud and confident about it, but I felt deficient. I felt unworthy. But that doesn't mean it was alcohol, or that doesn't mean it was other people. That was my own self. Nowadays, if someone says, "You're not going to drink?" It's such completely different thing. I don't have to defend it. I'm just like, "No." I don't say anything else, I'm like... And I'm just a normal person that just says, "I don't feel like drinking right now." That whole shame stuff that went with it before, and wanting to have people look at me like I can control myself, it just goes away.
Zach Reeder: Sure. I think that there is something to be said about that. Why do we feel the need to defend ourselves? And partly, and I know that we talk a lot about... Well, I guess in the AA, or 12-step model, is called the 12-step model, or the traditional model, there's a big play for, you got to completely change... Did your parrot just sneeze?
Matt Finch: No. She got pissed off. She was like, "I want to-"
Zach Reeder: I heard you, I think it was yesterday or. I was just in one of the podcasts, and you're talking about-
Matt Finch: She sneezed on my neck.
Zach Reeder: Yeah. Okay. Anyway, but with the old models, they talk a lot about you got to get rid of all of your old using friends, you can't hang around with those people. And there's some debate on that, but I think it's at least worth diving into. Maybe you do still like those people, but if you audited that relationship, if you were to audit that relationship, how much of that relationship was dependent on the connective tissue of you guys drinking together? If you can say that that was a very small part then you should absolutely try to salvage and find other things to do with that person, if that's a meaningful, purposeful relationship.
Zach Reeder: But if the best memories or experiences you have with that person have to do with obtaining, using, and recovering from substances then it's at least worth auditing that relationship. But I guess, that need to defend myself, is it, "Who am I defending myself to?" So if I consider the source, "Who am I defending myself to?" Am I defending myself to all of the same people that I was just getting fucked up with, and they're just asking me because I'm not getting fucked up with them anymore. So, yeah.
Matt Finch: Yeah. No, I did that for years. Probably at least, I don't know, maybe the first three years, four years, somewhere around there. Then some days I didn't need to defend it, really depended on who. But I'm 42 now, it's been a long time. I've not cut complete ties with all those people. But over the years, it went from, I stopped hanging out with them as much, to I rarely ever hung out with them, to nowadays, especially since COVID, I haven't seen any of those guys or girls in years. And you know what? As much as I love them and everything, I don't miss hanging out with them. I still love them, but it's not just the drinking and cigarettes which I don't care about that. But not just the drinking, and the watching TV, and just hanging around. It's more so of the conversations. And you and I were talking about this when we were catching up earlier.
Matt Finch: I forget who said this quote, it was something like, "Great people talk about ideas and concepts, average people talk about events, and below average people talk about other people." Or something like that. I'm paraphrasing it. And so nothing against them, they are where they at in life. I won't expect everyone to be where I am. But I really love having conversations like we do on this podcast, with my girlfriend when Chris came to visit. Because there's a wide variety of fun things I want to talk about. So it's really like that. But that's crazy adversity. It reminds me of when you're going out and abusing alcohol, drinking too much, it's self-induced adversity. Let's go on this one for a second, a lot of people will start drinking more than they were before to deal with adversity, whether the adversity is anxiety, stress, or something else.
Matt Finch: People usually start drinking more, some kind of adversity, or maybe they just want to party and stuff. But usually it's to escape, or at least somewhat. To feel better. To escape the... So you use it at the beginning to improve your life and stuff, and a lot of times to deal with some adversity like, "Oh, this work day sucks. I'm so stressed out, I'm so angry." And drink some alcohol. But then the more we do it, then it's self-induced adversity the addiction. We're creating so much more adversity in our lives than before we started to do that.
Zach Reeder: Yeah. It's a band aid on a bullet wound. That's the best analogy I can put in terms of that. You're right, we drink to escape. That's the problem with pain, it's something that we deem unmanageable. Whether it's physical or emotional pain, it's not something we actively embrace, at least most people. So yeah, to take something that socially you been told, this is okay to do, and use that because it doesn't take long to figure out when you're drinking that it calms your nerves, it chills you out, it sedates you. So the problem with it is, it only does that for maybe the first 20 minutes, and then after that you're chasing it to the point...
Zach Reeder: And if you're in a social situation, where other people are dictating when the drinks come, and the timing of these things, it's so easy, it's out of control. And then you're behind the wheel of a car, getting pulled over by a state trooper, and going and sitting in jail. And it's not like you had bad intentions. It's not like your intentions were terrible, you just didn't want to feel like shit. But yeah, the solution becomes the problem. And really, I mean alcohol is an inanimate thing, it's not necessarily good or bad. I keep doing this a lot this tonight, and I don't know why I'm quoting a lot, but it's not a good or bad it's our relationship to that thing that deems it positive or negative. And if we see something that perceptively, or our perception of it is solving our problem of pain, we tend to throw moderation out the window.
Matt Finch: And it's reminding me of when I did a session with Tana not long ago, and towards the beginning of it, she said alcoholism, drug addiction is a survival mechanism at the beginning, and that resonated so true for me. First it was having fun with my friends and everything, yada, yada, yada. But eventually, it became literally a survival mechanism, or I thought that I needed it as a survival mechanism. Back then, I don't even think there was hardly anything on the internet, it was that dial up, AOL, the chat rooms. There was no websites that I knew of. So for me, I didn't know of other things, really, to deal with all the negative, adverse things that were happening in my life.
Matt Finch: Alcohol, especially being so hypoglycemic, and especially living in a town where everyone that I knew was drinking a lot, and celebrating it, and talking about it, and glorifying it. And since I was so hypoglycemic most of the time, that alcohol would just kick in. Part of my anxiety back then, and lack of confidence was, I needed work to do. But a big part of it too, was the hypoglycemia was just exacerbating mental health disorders. It was exacerbating trauma that I hadn't resolved. It's so crazy, so I don't want to talk a ton about hypoglycemia. But what do you think about outgrowing alcoholism, and we can even throw in drug addiction in here too. Outgrowing alcoholism and/or drug addiction?
Matt Finch: First, outgrow the biochemical deficits. So with people that have that genetic predisposition or the hyperglycemia, it's hard to outgrow alcoholism when you still have that blood sugar imbalance problem. I have a client right now that he's got really, really bad hypoglycemia, some health problems, he's older. And so that's really the first step, is really trying to do as much as possible to balance that out. So I guess, what do you think about viewing it? So if someone right now listening or watching wants to create their own plan on how to outgrow alcohol or drug addiction, and then evolve through adversity, bio, psycho, social, environmental, spiritual plan. I guess looking for people to look where they need to grow the most. What do I have?
Matt Finch: And Chris talks about these missing links. What are the places where they need to grow the most, and then how can they put those together, assemble them? It's like a all-around holistic growth plan, so they can actually not just grow in one area like improve their mindset with a counselor, or coach, or something, but grow in their nutrition. And you're planning a course on this in the future, a live course, which sounds cool. And then, outgrowing their relationships with people that no longer are the best people to be around. And you talked about this before we started recording. The social contagion phenomenon where, show me that the five people that you hang around with the most, and I'll tell you what your life is.
Zach Reeder: Yeah. I'm grateful for Fit Recovery and everything that it stands for, and this podcast. And people that are looking for this kind of information are so fortunate to be able to come into this wealth of knowledge. Because when getting to what you're talking about, how do you know? How do you know that you're hypoglycemic? How do you find out that amino acids can mitigate post-acute withdrawal and acute withdrawal symptoms? Unless you're curious, and that curiosity comes from not judging how you feel, but being curious as to why you feel that way.
Zach Reeder: People that are more free thinkers, not emotional thinkers. Because that's one of the biggest things to outgrow, I think, is get out... And it's going to sound abrasive, but fuck your feelings, and think through this. Why do you feel this way? And developing an education around, what all this stuff is. And what I mean by all this stuff, obviously we know that nutrition, and microbiome, and your neurotransmitter efficiency, all these things are foundational pillars of the biochemical structure of recovery. And when that's off, nothing else can nothing else can get right, it's just not possible.
Zach Reeder: But again, the adversity that we're talking about right now is, how do you see past the pain? Because the pain, ultimately, if you're not strong enough, if you don't have enough courage to withstand the pain for any length of time, it sends you right back. It sends you right back to what you know will work in the short term at least. But I think overcoming, in early recovery especially. Overcoming and outgrowing old behaviors. And a lot of that has to do with not just people, places, and things, which is very much a conventional treatment jargon term. You got to change the people, places, and things. But there's a lot of truth to that. You can't go hang out at the same places, especially in early recovery. You can't go hang out at the same places that you were hanging out at while you were getting fucked up.
Zach Reeder: And you obviously can't do the same things, you got to find different things to do. Things that you can get passionate about. Find new ways to be, new people to engage with, new places to connect to plug into. If that's some kind of community resource, or your church, or some other form of community gathering that are doing some good. Maybe it's volunteer work. But all of those things are relevant, because the more time you spend around people that are trying to think like you think, and that is, "I need to be sober today. I need to not drink today." The more time you spend around people...
Zach Reeder: And that's the one thing, I will say this, that's the one thing I got out of AA that was good for me, was the fellowship. I might not have been able to buy in to the process and the principles, but I cared great deeply about all the people that were there, and they were all there for the same reason. That's because they didn't want to drink today. And that's something I could get behind, absolutely. And if we can all congregate together, and figure it out together, that sounds good to me. So there's definitely some buy in there, and I can totally see why AA works for a lot of people in that sense. Just the fellowship alone is very positive, to be able to connect, because that's what we're really craving, is connection. We want to know we're not alone.
Zach Reeder: But, yeah. But then the other part of overcoming and outgrowing those old behaviors, it's not just behaviors, it's the mindsets that precipitate those behaviors as well. So your values around how you perceive the world, how you perceive yourself. But also, to be able to stop making alcohol the hero, or the drugs the hero too. But also, there's a dichotomy there. I don't think demonizing the alcohol or the drug abuse is the right thing either. Again that's an inanimate thing, it's our relationship to that thing. It's us that have the problem. It's not alcohol with the problem, it's us. So figuring out, being able to look inwardly, take ownership, extreme ownership even. Being able to take extreme ownership of how you ended up in that place, and start to chip away at it. I hope that makes sense when I'm saying that.
Matt Finch: Absolutely. And towards the end there too, sounds like you were picking up on the mindsets, outgrowing belief systems. That was one of the best things that I ever did in life, and I continue to do was, they trained me pretty good, they programmed me. I call it the one path recovery doctrine, or the one path recovery matrix. How the big book has been indoctrinating and programming people that there's only one path, and it has to be total recovery, abstinence, and sobriety from all substances forever. And if you try anything else, other than that big book, then you're screwed. So I believed that for a long time, and for years and years, I just kept trying to do 12-step meetings. I go from AA to NA. I'd find different groups. I was like, "I have to make this work because I keep drinking. I keep going back to drinking, I keep going back to drugs. I have to make this work."
Matt Finch: Intuitively, I knew that it wasn't for me. A lot of people just loved it. From the very get go, I just knew, "Do I have to be here for the rest of my life?" And I mean no offense, there was great people there. But my freaking soul, my soul knowing, just knew that's not what I was supposed to do with this life. But back then, till I was 24, and then I was in my 20s, I hadn't learned how to make God, the universe, true source, my higher self-intuition subconscious. I'd never listened to any of those entities, whatever you want to call them, to those resources. I listened to other people. My sponsor is telling me to do this, the program is told me to do this, my mom wants me to do this.
Matt Finch: I would get intuitions a lot, but I rarely followed through on them. I rarely worked to deepen that connection. I was a boy, basically. It took a long time to turn into a man, and then after that it took a long time to turn into a grounded man. But for me, outgrowing the belief that AA was the only way, was a huge one for me. And then outgrowing. When I read Dr. Charles Grant's book End Your Addiction Now: The Proven Nutritional Supplement Program That Can Set You Free. I had never read anything like that. That drugs already mimicked neurotransmitters that we already made in my brain. I don't even know if I had ever heard the word neuro transmitter. I probably did. But I mean, I just wasn't thinking about any brain stuff back then.
Matt Finch: And so that was a huge one. I outgrew my belief that addiction was more of a moral deficiency, a lack of integrity, a lack of having ethics and everything. Soon as I saw just how important the brain's role and how these hijack our brain, and deplete our brain chemicals that literally respond to make us behave and act in a certain way, and feel a certain way with our mood. So that was a huge one too. I outgrew... Nowadays, Zach, I try not have... You were talking about this earlier, the emotional investment in a thing. So ego investment. When people have been programmed by the one path recovery doctrine, that's a cultural backdrop at least here in America. It's embedded into the fabric of not just mainstream recovery, but mainstream culture a large, people have heard about AA, people have heard about that.
Matt Finch: And so at that point, so many people have... And especially if it worked really well for them, a lot of people it'll work really well for them, and they will become so ego invested in the idea that the AA is the only way, that if you tell them anything, otherwise they get really angry, and you can tell they get triggered. That's showing that they're not just attached to those beliefs, but it's literally more than an emotional investment, it's an ego investment. And the ego is there to make us see ourselves as separate from everything else. And it wants to get things, and avoid problems. The ego never shuts up. So when they hear an attack on AA, it feels like a personal attack on them. There's that trigger.
Matt Finch: I used to have that with even the biochemical component thing of recovery, when people would say, "Oh, that's..." I'd be ego invested. So I guess through time what I'm trying to say here is, I heard something a couple of months ago, Dr. Bruce Lipton, the biology of belief guy. Chris had told me about him. Every once in a while, I'll watch a YouTube video of his. And on this one, his co-host of this show they were doing on the Gaia channel, Gregg Braden. Check him out, I think you'd like him, Gregg Braden. It was like two of the greatest minds in the world on some of the most interesting topics for me personally. Gregg Braden and Bruce Lipton, on raising the consciousness of the planet using quantum physics and quantum entanglement, and the science of consciousness and spirituality.
Matt Finch: And they were talking about having provisional positions, rather than the fact of positionality. So people that are totally ego invested in a certain dogma, or conviction, or belief, or idea. In the 1920s, I think the scientists knew for a fact there was one galaxy in the universe, the Milky Way. And anyone that said there was more or said otherwise, they were quacks. Well, what? It's about 100 years later, and they're 100% certain that there's at least two trillion galaxies. From one galaxy to two trillion. And so they were talking about in this podcast episode, I guess you could call it, how so many people get attached. Like science, nowadays, science, science. Science has become a fucking religion, a dogma, when it doesn't even have anything to do with science anymore. Because the mainstream science is such an outdated system. It's everything that they can visibly see, measure, and validate, and substantiate in double-blind placebo-controlled studies. Has nothing to do with the truth.
Matt Finch: Now 100 years from now, they're going to look back and go, "Oh, gosh, those people were such morons." But the people that have become so ego invested in these ideas, and these beliefs, they feel attacked when you say anything otherwise. It's just so crazy. So anyways, long story short, with addiction recovery, with anything, with any topic nowadays, I'm looking to outgrow beliefs that no longer serve me. And so the term for this, that they were talking about is, instead of having positionality, this is my position, and always being so rigid with your fucking positions and everything. Provisional positions, "This is my provisional position." This is our provisional position. We know there's at least two trillion galaxies. But maybe there's more than 10 trillion. Or right now, we think that probably one of the best ways to restore healthy neurotransmission after quitting a substance, or even while quitting a substance is amino acids, and co-factors, and various supplements, and nutrition, and diet.
Matt Finch: We just know, certainly, that's the best way to naturally enhance those. Of course, you could get an Adderall prescription, or a Ritalin prescription, or Vyvanse, prescription. A nootropic like adrafinil, modafinil, or many others, that's going to give you tons of dopamine. But those are, I was talking about are semi-synthetic, or even synthetic. But maybe 10 years from now, 50 years from now, 100 years from now, we realize that there's this crazy breathing exercise that someone could do for two hours straight, and it totally resets their entire brain to go back to square one. So that's why I like to have provisional positions now. And I don't like to get attached to things. Of course, I still do here and there, but I like to be aware, and experience myself, instead of being stuck in this mindless thing, to be viewing myself from outside. And I'm both living through my life, and I'm also observing my life as the observer, which is the whole consciousness thing to where, don't get so stuck in the act of, doing, and thinking, but also be and be aware and experience.
Matt Finch: So it's more, you have a better vantage point, more openness, more awareness. From that your whole life, and world, and everything, and universe becomes richer, and way more exciting and interesting, and also fun, and it gives you lots of shortcut, and hacks. It makes life easier if you do it the right way. That was a long one. Sorry about that.
Zach Reeder: It's good. To piggyback off that though, because even what you're talking about being more provisional, which translates to me, back to that, be more curious instead of judgmental. Where we don't have to constantly judge things as good bad, right, wrong. And I've-
Matt Finch: That includes ourselves too.
Zach Reeder: Absolutely. And with ourselves. I've had multiple clients through the years, when it comes to lapses, relapses where it's like... And they're just beating themselves up. And I try to encourage them to be curious, instead of beating themselves up over their perception of the situation, I failed, just guilt and shame, because they're judging themselves. It's bad, it's wrong. I try to convey more of a curiosity because I'm not judging them at that point. And I'm good about that in professional. I could learn to be a little better about it in my personal life, and that's me being transparent. In my personal life, having conversations with my girlfriend, I'm always... She brings something to me, and I'm always like, "Well, why did you do this? How about you do this instead." And that's me judging it. I'm not-
Matt Finch: Are you a Virgo, Zach?
Zach Reeder: I'm a Capricorn.
Matt Finch: Okay.
Zach Reeder: Yeah. But it's something that I continually have to be more and more and more aware of, and I do it to myself. I judge myself, "I can't believe you did that. How stupid." But outgrowing, as it relates to the topic, outgrowing that mindset. I don't have to judge it. Okay. I slipped up, I went back to doing something I've been doing for 20, 30 years. Okay. What did I learn? What was my experience with it this time? Did something happen? Do I want this? Do I not want this? What was the good about this event? What was the bad? And not judging and more of a curious way like, "What did I like about it? What did I not like about?"
Zach Reeder: I know that seems counterintuitive, as I'm saying, but I'm looking at it more of like cost benefit analysis. But it takes a level of curiosity to examine, and observe yourself, and recollect those things. But that's a part of that growing process, is being able to, when you do have these perceived slip ups, or relapses if you even want to call them that, that you're at least observing maybe why. How you ended up there. Who were you talking to? Where were you at? What were you doing? And what was your experience with that? Were you able to stop yourself before something tragic happened? Or you blacked out. Were you able to moderate this time? My experience with moderation has always been, "Yeah. I can moderate 1, 2, 3 times, until-"
Matt Finch: I can moderate until I can't.
Zach Reeder: Right. But it reinforces, I gave myself permission, I gave myself permission, I gave myself permission, and look, I'm fine. Nobody got hurt. The car is not in the front yard, everything is fine. And it just reinforces that position in my head like, "Oh, I can actually do this." Even though I know my relationship with alcohol doesn't work that way, it deceives me every time.
Matt Finch: Have you heard of the concept of tyranny of the shoulds?
Zach Reeder: No. Please explain.
Matt Finch: There's this doctor, he's been deceased for a few years. In the spirit world now. And his name was... And he wrote Healing Back Pain and a bunch of other books. Dr. Sarno, Dr. John E. Sarno. The dude was a legend. And he talked about something, because he was the head of the back pain rehabilitation division of, I think, of hospital in Syracuse. It's big, huge Hospital in Syracuse, New York. And he noticed something, he did it for decades and decades. And he noticed these similar traits of all the people or the vast majority of people that had back pain, that had shoulder pain, that came in with these leg problems. It was mostly back pain stuff. And he noticed that almost everyone was really hard on themselves, really self-critical, overachievers, do gooders, just really, really...
Matt Finch: He called one of these tendencies, the tyranny of the shoulds. So I should be doing more, or I shouldn't have done that. Oh, I should be doing this, and I really should get this together. It's just a lot of just really hard on themselves. When I was going through chronic pain for three years, mostly shoulder pain and neck pain, that was me. I was tension generating personality, because I overcame addiction but only happened because I had overdosed. I almost died, and realized that I almost left my daughter that was a year and a half years old without a dad for the rest of your life. My solution was, I was such a weak man and human being, and person, and everything. Well, how do I get better? How do I do this?
Matt Finch: Addiction and alcoholism where you and I have been in the past it's very extreme on the spectrum. So my answer was, and so I was an extremist, at surfing, downhill ski. Everything I did that I loved, whether it was music, drugs and alcohol, women, I would go to the extreme. So my idea to not relapse ever again, and to get my life together, and my shit together, and be a strong grounded dad for her, and eventually do something I liked for a living, and make money, was to go extreme in the opposite direction. I got to read lots of books, and I got to make lots of money, and I got to... And I just went, went and pushed myself, and pushed myself, and pushed myself for years and years and years and years. And I wasn't happy a lot of the time.
Matt Finch: So there was a lot of benefits of that. I put so much work forth that I got to I to a great place at least financially, to where I'm not like, "Where is my money going to come from?" But during that time, I had lots of psychosomatic disorders. Chronic pain, lots of rosacea breaks out. These tension and stress inducing disorders. And so Dr. John Sarno has written so many books on this. The Divided Mind, The Mind Body Connection. And there's a lot of different cultures that believe this too, to where we're not just physical beings, we're emotional, mental, spiritual. So any imbalances in your emotions, and some traumas, and how you're dealing with people, and how hard you're pushing yourself. "I should be doing this. I need to be doing more." Having really, really...
Matt Finch: And I learned from Tony Robbins so I had these high expectations of myself from learning from him. So then eventually, I had to tone down that extreme good stuff, extreme exercise, extreme personal development. It took a long time, but I had to finally go, "Dude, you're just fucking working yourself and cracking the whip on yourself. No one else was holding you to these standards. They're ridiculous standards, man. Have some more realistic expectations." I would always be like, "I'm going to do this. I'm going to do that." And I got a lot of shit done, but I never ever... It always took way longer than I thought I could do it. So finally, I just had to start mellowing out, and mellowing out, and cutting out things, and cutting out things, and becoming more and more minimal. To where present day, I am a minimalist, a naturalist, naturist, spiritualist.
Matt Finch: And I just got the core elements, elevation recovery, opiate addiction support, Fit Recovery, my family, and recreation stuff around the home, and nothing else. Before I had so many projects, so many businesses, so many businesses I was being a part of, speaking at, going to all these seminars and stuff. Being with all these people, just doing so many things which was great. It was a great part of my path, but I'm so much happier, and more fulfilled, and healthier now that I'm not doing that anymore. There's no way I could have kept that up. It was great for my 30s, for all throughout my 30s basically. It was what I needed. But it feels good to get past it now, to do all that work and get to a place where I can just chill here with my bird, talk to you on Zoom, post some podcasts, and coach some clients, sell some courses, and that's my life.
Matt Finch: I don't have many other goals other than this, man. Before it was like, I want to go get on these talk shows, and I want the world to recognize me as an expert. And I want to have this big huge mansion here on the beach, and I want to have this nice car, and these nice outfits. And it was just a lot of goals, dude. I want to get all these tattoos finished and look... Now none of that stuff really matters anymore. I got 1,000 square foot apartment, a wonderful girlfriend, and daughter, and bird, great clients, and co-hosts, and guests, and websites, and YouTube channels. And I don't need anything else. But I had to do a lot of that work to get to this place, so it was necessary.
Zach Reeder: Yeah. I've been reading two books by this author George McCune, Essentialism, and then his newer book, Effortless. But more to the side of Essentialism, doing what's essential and being happy. So as we're talking, it's really like, what kind of philosophies can a person adopt to be more in tune with the adversity of... Because with recovery, with just the act of recovery. Like I said before, it's this ongoing thing of cultivating a life that you want to be present for, that you don't feel the need to escape from, or that you have to enhance through unsafe, high risk situations like using substances, harmful substances.
Zach Reeder: But I think one of the biggest ways that I've personally grown into my recovery was to take on more of a Jocko Willink, David Goggins, Andy Frisella. I'm plugging first form. But the 75 Hard, I'm on day three of 75 Hard. And it's the third time that I've done it. Or at least the initial 75 days, I've yet to get through the entire Live Hard program, because it's hard. It's a yearlong year.
Matt Finch: Oh, it's a year.
Zach Reeder: Yeah. So 75 Hard is 75 days, but that's pretty much the boot camp to it. And then there's phase One, two, and three. And so just to talk about it real briefly, so you can put it into context. So 75 Hard, there's essentially five tasks that have to be done every day. And if you miss any of these things, you go back to day one.
Matt Finch: Oh, that's brutal.
Zach Reeder: It doesn't matter what day you're on. Okay. So sticking to a diet or a nutrition plan that's in congruence with your fitness goal. So if you want to lose weight, then you got to do caloric deficit. And it's pretty scalable. I mean if somebody wanted to do weight watch, as long as they stuck to it, it doesn't matter in that sense. But the idea is that you cannot deviate by even one little chocolate chip. You cannot deviate or you start back day one. The second one is drinking a gallon of water a day. The third is two workouts a day, a minimum of 45 minutes, one of which has to be outside no matter what. The fourth one is reading 10 pages of a nonfiction book, typically personal development type books or something that you're interested in learning about, and then the fifth thing is taking a progress picture of yourself every day.
Zach Reeder: So it's five things. So like today, I was at the gym this morning, and then around three o'clock today, I went to the park and did some yoga, and some mobility, and I'm currently reading effortless from George McCune for my book. But I guess my point in talking about this is, I have personally found that I thrive in the more responsibility that I take on, the more diligent, and the more deliberate I get with every minute of my day of having a purpose. Because what I found for me personally... And I realize this is all a very personal thing, everybody's recovery is a very personal thing. But for me, not structuring my time was dangerous, not structuring my time is dangerous for a lot of reasons.
Zach Reeder: Personally me, I get into my emotional brain. I definitely have an aversion to being uncomfortable or being in pain, as most people do. But for me, that often leads to, I will cut corners, I will go around things. Like we were talking before we started recording, the last couple months was a dirty ball for me, and it's only because I let things get unmanageable in my life with maybe working a little too much on multiple projects, and spreading myself a little too thin. But I wasn't structuring it around things, I wasn't doing this program. When I'm doing something like 75 Hard, I'm able to see clearly. Whatever it is, it gives me enough structure around... I don't know, if it's the consequence of having to go back and start over, but there's enough there that it focuses everything for me.
Zach Reeder: And so it's become my philosophy. When I feel myself getting out of control in life, in general... And I don't necessarily mean in terms of relapse at this point in my life, but who knows where it could go if I were to let it, if I were to just completely let things go with the flow without any real rhyme or reason. I don't know. So for me, I know when my life starts to get chaotic, the best way I know how to put it back together is to give it a name, and give it some kind of structure, some kind of go back to the basics for me, and back to a program. But I think adopting some sort of philosophy or ideology is part of that spiritual transcendence in recovery, isn't it? Because you got to believe in something bigger than yourself.
Matt Finch: Or you don't have to, but in my experience for me, and not just me, but all the people I've worked with and witnessed, it seems like it's very helpful to find something bigger than yourself, whatever that may be, seems like it's really helpful. What you're talking about right now, I resonate with that so much. I just went through a phase, maybe a few months ago, for whatever reason I got away from using my planner, and I was getting burned out with the planner anyways, so it worked really well for me for several years. And I was a late bloomer when it came to time management, and planning, that kind of stuff. So it was very helpful, and of course I'd go through phases of it, but I was pretty consistent. Eventually I just like, I don't know if I needed something new. But I got to a place where unless I had my planner out where I could see it, and opened up on the exact page then it was like, there's things places.
Matt Finch: And so I was losing that habit, and I was finding that it wasn't fun filling it out every day. It was like, write this here, write this here. It was just rigid. So now what I do is, this is tripled or quadrupled my productivity, energy, fulfillment and joy. As I have my whiteboard that a lot of people have seen in my background for months and months and months, probably more than a year, actually. Now you don't see it in the background because it's not blank. I've ditched my planner, I mean I still have it. But I haven't used my planner in months now. On my whiteboard, I go ballistic at the very beginning of the day, I write the name of the day at the top, and I write everything small so I can fit a lot of stuff in.
Matt Finch: And I'll just go down and just put checkboxes to the left, and write all these things that number one that I have appointments for, clients, picking the kid up from school. Anything that I definitely have to do at a certain time. I put that up there, then all the stuff that I really want to get done, but I don't need to, I put that up there. Then I work in things for bio psycho, social, environmental, spiritual. So I'll be like, "Oh, I'm going to do..." And I'll put an Epsom salt bath in there, and I'll put a nature walk later on. And then, since it's right there super big where I can see it. So I got the different color markers to make it more fun. And since it's right there, and I see it all the time, when I'm going to the bathroom, going to my room to get something. And then I'll be like, "Oh, and I just got another idea." There's so much room, I can just put it down there.
Matt Finch: And then I'm like, "Oh, I'm going to do this right now." And I'll check it off. So every day, it's like... And then you see yourself checking all the things off, and then you can put more things on. And then at the very bottom, there's a line, there's the first top half, because there's just the things for that day, then there's a big line, and the whole bottom half, bottom 40%, 45% is things for some other day, maybe a month from now. And so on that, I'm just like, "Oh, and I needed to get this done. Oh, I've had to get my car detailed for so long. Oh, I want to check in research this for my bird, a GPS in case he flies away." All sorts of stuff. Clean papaya's cage, get new tires for my car, learn from this book.
Matt Finch: And then I'll cross things off. Sometimes I can get one of those things down that's not even planned for this particular day, and I'll cross that off. Then I can erase it, and that'll give me room to put something else. I've probably tripled or quadrupled my productivity, passion, energy, and joy. I'm like you Zach, if I don't have something that's keeping me focused, and motivated, and on the ball, and doing lots of responsibilities, and also enjoying, having fun, not just grinding, but fun stuff. And then I thrive just like you, how you have this structure, and you have all these things that you're getting done, and you know what they are. That's how I thrive too. I really believe that if somebody can really get that dialed in at the beginning, when they're quitting a substance, outgrowing alcohol or drug addiction. I love what you're saying, man. I can't agree more, to have some type of a routine, or even better yet for a lot of people, if they're not to a place where they can hold themselves to a routine, do some type of accountability program like this that is so structured, there's positive reinforcement dial in, there's negative punishment where you got to...
Matt Finch: And it makes it interesting, it's novel. And I don't even know a lot about it, but it sounds phenomenal. There is really something to be said about adopting... One of the things I love about Jordan Peterson is, adopt more and more responsibility. When I wasn't getting to do my planners much, when I just fell out of the habit, I'd find myself wasting a whole lot of time, not having as much energy. And I'd sit there I'd be like, "Oh, what am I supposed to do?" I swear I've got ADHD.
Matt Finch: If I have organization of knowing what I have to do, I have like Adderall, but not Adderall type focus. It's like I'm on Adderall, but I'm not on Adderall. But if I don't have that structure, it's like I have total ADHD, and I'll think about something, "Oh, I want to do that." But then the thought goes away if I don't write it down. I'm all over the place without an organizational time management system that also is where you can put things on it, that are compelling to you. It's like a compelling future, a compelling task. One of the quotes that Tony Robbins has said, I'm not sure if he came up with it is, "Nobody is lazy. People are not lazy, they just have impotent goals."
Zach Reeder: Mm-hmm (affirmative). That's powerful. Yeah. Think about, in active addiction or active use, it's a very fast paced situation. It's using, or it's obtaining, using, and recovering. And that's a very daunting and time-consuming task in and of itself. But give or take some of the details, the idea of it is simple, "I'm going to get this, I'm going to use it, I'm going to sit around while I..." But you end up with a lot of time, a lot of free time when you eliminate that. There's just so much free time. But back to some of the adversity, especially in early recovery when now you have all this time, but there's also... It's not like these things didn't need done when you were getting fucked up. Now the bills are behind, relationships are burned. There's all kinds of adversity that comes in early recovery, especially for heavy hitter users.
Zach Reeder: Maybe it's a living situation, transportation, occupational. Now there's health things, maybe now you have to get yourself squared away health wise, maybe you got to get rid of your Hep C for someone that's been IV drug using. There's all of these tasks. But I've seen countless, countless, countless people in early recovery, don't do any of those things, because they don't get organized in any way. They don't have any measure of accountability or some way to manage these tasks. What happens, and I know what this is, when you know you have 10 or 12 different things you should probably be doing, but you don't have them organized in a way where you can have a plan, create some objectives and execute on those things, if it's just bouncing around in your head, you'll go, "Okay. Yeah, I could do that. I don't feel like doing that. I could do this, I don't feel like doing this. You know what, TikTok sounds good."
Zach Reeder: Or maybe I'll just take a nap, or relapse. It becomes this thing where when you just allow these things to bounce around your head, because there is a lot, and especially... So being able to develop a skill set to organize these things. Because I can't stress enough, I just can't stress enough how having a plan, and again like you said, creating some responsibility for yourself. And honestly, even in early recovery, I've seen the dichotomy of this. I've seen people do nothing, and I've seen people make leaps and bounds in a very short amount of time because they were open to having a plan, they were willing to do the uncomfortable work.
Zach Reeder: And that's the biggest thing is, if you can figure out your plan with somebody, you don't have to do it alone. That's why you and I do the things that we do. They don't have to do it alone. And being able to work with someone and come up with a plan, and then hold yourself to it. But understand just because you have a plan doesn't mean that it's easy either. It doesn't mean that there's probably not going to be other shit you'd rather do. And so, with that plan, figuring out a way to get comfortable with being uncomfortable.
Matt Finch: Mm-hmm (affirmative). And it's hard to do too.
Zach Reeder: Oh, man.
Matt Finch: Become comfortable with being uncomfortable. And it's like a paradox. But it makes sense. It's like, "Okay. So you don't like to be in any distress." This was me for a long time. I hated to distress, even a little bit of distress, that other people seemed to be able to deal with, and let it bounce off them, or a roll off of them like water on a duck. The slightest amount of distress would just, fuck man, it was hard for me. So learning how to be comfortable with being uncomfortable, that was a hard skill. But I mean at the beginning, I had a lot of motivation to learn. Aa lot of it was Tony Robbins and Wayne Dyer. Before I didn't have any mentors, I wasn't reading books. I didn't have any mentors, where they were showing me that I could have an awesome life, that I really could.
Matt Finch: I had a fixed mindset, I didn't know that you could have a growth mindset. I had no idea. No one had ever taught me that. So that was probably one of the biggest limiting beliefs that I had to outgrow, to outgrow addiction and not relapse, was just expand my horizon. "Wait, you mean I'm not fixed? I can improve myself I can get smarter, I can learn more things." That was a revelation to me. And it was just so crazy. But at the very beginning I was going to school part time to become a drug and alcohol counselor. That was really interesting and exciting. I had a lot of responsibility, and I had an internship. I was a dad so that's a lot of responsibility, and I was doing a bunch of stuff for my parents around the house to earn my place there. I was being a bum there for so long just doing drugs for six, eight months just...
Matt Finch: So I was like, "Okay. I got to make up for it." And then I joined a gym, and my friends and I would work out together. So yeah, the more responsibilities I had like that, and these paying bills, and getting on top of shit. The more responsibility I had and the more I fulfilled those responsibilities, the better I felt about myself, the better I felt about the direction I was going, the more people I was helping as a result of that responsibility. That really installs kind of like as a catalyst for a positive success cycle versus when you were saying, when people have the anti-routine in early recovery. Zach, every time I ever had any recovery, when I didn't have a routine, just hanging out with my buddies, "Oh, let's go surfing. Oh, let's go get some breakfast burritos. What's the weather? Oh, let's just watch a movie."
Matt Finch: How every day there was not much planned to do, just wherever the wind takes me, or whatever I either feel like doing, or don't feel like doing. You said that book, Fuck Your Feelings. I listened to that on Audible, I think that was the title. You brought up a sensualism too, which is really interesting, because that's the book. And I read that one, that's the book that started off my whole minimalism, digital. It was that book that you talked about, that one, and I did a few others too. But that really changed my life. So that's cool that you brought that up. It's very helpful. But how do you outgrow alcoholism or drug addiction, outgrow irresponsibility, outgrow procrastination, outgrow limiting beliefs, outgrow a old faulty character and mindset, outgrow judgment, self-judgment, outgrow your judgment of others, and trade that for self-forgiveness and forgiveness of others. Radical forgiveness, not learn to forgive, just drop shit. Life is too short.
Matt Finch: Outgrow your crappy diet, outgrow your limited knowledge of nutrition if that's something. Outgrow your need to be right, and win the argument in a relationship, versus you can be right or you can be in love. Outgrow the need to win the argument, and you can be in love or you can be right. I used to argue a lot, and I used to love winning with the girlfriends that I had like, "I showed that chick." It's like, "Yeah. I showed her but you're not in love anymore." The love is gone, your ego won, but love lost. So outgrowing the need to just identify with that little slimy, slippery, cunning... What's cunning, baffling, and powerful is the ego, man. That thing. And then to have periods where you tame it, or even transcend it for a while, and then to notice when it creeps back up. And it's like, "Oh that feels like shit." Or you don't even notice it for a few days. So many things to outgrow and to evolve through.
Zach Reeder: So you've brought up to Tony Robbins a couple of times, even more so than Tony Robbins for me personally, I'm a big fan of Jim Rohn.
Matt Finch: That's where Tony Robin learned everything from.
Zach Reeder: So with that, because adversity is synonymous with pain. So Jim Rohn talks about two types of pain. The pain of discipline, or the pain of regret. And I don't know, that's something that resonated very, very deeply with me to the bones. Because as uncomfortable as it is to do. If I have a weight loss goal, as uncomfortable as it is to eat the same thing every day, it's certainly not as uncomfortable as waking up looking in the mirror going, "Wow you are not how I thought you were going to look."
Zach Reeder: Or your friends call you and want to go out, and go kick it, and you're like, "Yeah. I got to work in the morning, and I don't feel like doing that hung over, and my bank account is really going to appreciate it tomorrow too." And it's things like that, instead of just doing what feels good. Because often we trade the... I don't know if you ever heard that term, when you use or when you get drunk, you're stealing happiness from tomorrow.
Matt Finch: No. I haven't heard it phrased in that way. I liked that. You said something earlier too, and I won't go on, but it was something like, you need to design a life and recovery that you want to actually be present for or something.
Zach Reeder: Yeah.
Matt Finch: Yeah. You got some cool quotes and some cool terms and phrases, but...
Zach Reeder: But yeah, I would just rather... Personally the best way I know, and the best way I can teach is that. It's either the pain of discipline, or the pain of regret. And if you want to outgrow this, in the words of Jordan Peterson, pursue what is meaningful not expedient. And have a plan, work with your coach, or work with a counselor, work with a sponsor, whatever it's going to work, read some books, watch some YouTube videos, get curious not just about how you're going to stop drinking or using, but how you're going to be the most eminently qualified human being that you can ever possibly be. And 90% of my recovery is personal growth and development, it's not how to avoid triggers and cravings.
Matt Finch: Yeah. You've outgrown the mainstream traditional one path recovery dogma. And so we'll start closing up, wrapping up here soon. I know it's past 10:00 there, but I wanted to ask you if... This would be a perfect last probably topic to talk about. Have you heard of T. Harv Eker. He wrote that really famous best-selling book, I think it's called The Millionaire Mind or something like that. It's a financial guru guy.
Zach Reeder: Yeah. Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Matt Finch: So he was on a podcast many years ago, and this is on YouTube, actually. There's no video, but it's audio on YouTube. And it was The Knowledge For Men podcast. And that podcast is no longer there. But all the episodes are still up. And I remember T. Harv Eker being interviewed by Andrew Ferebee on that podcast. And he was talking about this great success system that goes along with a lot of stuff Jim Rohn says. The pain of discipline or the pain of regret, you get to choose your pain. A lot of people will choose the pain of regret, I certainly did a lot. But T. Harv, let me see if I can get his little process. It was something like, "What would you really like to do? What would you just love to do with your life right now?"
Matt Finch: So it could be, I need to quit drugs, I need to quit alcohol. Okay. So that's what you want. All right. Step one, know what you want. Step two, why do you not already have that? Why have you not already attained that? And you jot that down. Step three, what would you have to do to obtain that goal? Write that down, state that. I need to do this, this, that, and the other. And then the next one is, are you willing to do that, and what would be the price you'd have to pay? That was the next one. What would you really, really, really want to do with your life? Why do you not already have that obtained? What would you need to do to have that happen, or become that, or achieve that? What is the price that you would need to pay? Are you willing to pay that price to do that? Yes. Are you ready to start paying that price now?
Matt Finch: That's a way to fucking launch people into action, if they do that correctly. Very powerful. I'm going to have to listen to some Jim Rohn again, I used to. I binged hundreds of hours of him when I first started in network marketing, maybe, six or seven years ago. They were like, "You got to listen to Jim Rohn for..." And it's just such great stuff. A lot of it was on sales, but most of it actually was just personal development. He's got great stories. There was this one little funny thing, where he's talking about how he was getting better at converting network marketing leads into distributors and customers. He's like, "At first, maybe you get one out of 10. One out of 10. Talk to 10 get one, talk to 10 get one, talk to 10 get one, talk to 10 get two. Then you start to get a little better, you start to talk to 10 get two, talk to 10 get two, talk to 10 get two, talk to 10, three. Some of the good people."
Matt Finch: It's just so funny, he's talking about sowing the seeds and stuff. I just love his stuff. That's a great resource. Study Jim Rohn free stuff on YouTube for personal development, addiction recovery. That guy if anybody of all the legends that have ever been alive, he can teach people how to outgrow everything that we've been talking about. Especially their philosophies, their attitudes, their belief systems, really cool stuff. So that's all I got tonight, Zach. If there's something else you wanted to bring up that we forgot, we can otherwise-
Zach Reeder: Okay. This has been a hell of a conversation as usual.
Matt Finch: Yeah. That was a really fun one. Yeah. I only looked at the phone one time. We just got it started, I had a feeling that it would just take us to places known and unknown. So thanks so much, man. Have a great rest of your night. I'm about to go have some dinner, and snuggle with this bird, maybe play a little bit of bass. What are you going to do after this? Going to go to bed soon, or you got work.
Zach Reeder: Oh man, I'll probably read a little bit, and crash out. I have the house to myself tonight. So my girlfriend is out of town for the evening, so I'm just going to enjoy the solitude. I'm glad you said you're going to read, because that just reminded me, I got to order going out tonight on a website, and order that book that Chris Scott is reading called Evolutionary Herbalism or something like that.
Matt Finch: Yeah. I heard him talking about. I heard him say it was a big one.
Zach Reeder: Yeah. It's got the word evolutionary in it. You evolved within that, and then herbs.
Matt Finch: Yeah.
Zach Reeder: My [crosstalk 01:15:01] just went to default. That's fine. All right, man. Well, have a great night, and we'll plan another one for this soon.
Matt Finch: All right, brother. Good to see you.
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